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I'm in the process of buying Markcv's Roscoe fretless with it's epoxy coated fingerboard, and wondered if anybody had an opinion about the process of coating boards in this way. It sounds on the face of it like a great idea (which partly is what prompted my interest in the Roscoe in the first place). There's been a thread running in recent days at Basschat on the subject of coating boards with various substances. Here's the URL:-

http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=51676&hl=superglue

Anybody got any thoughts? Rod, is this a process you're familiar with?

took a look at that thread ...

I know quite a few guys who have coated their fingerboard with superglue and gotten good results. I tried it once and didn't like the visual results because I could see all of the witness lines where I applied each drop and rubbed it out (just like utilizing Tru-Oil to finish a body - the witness lines are there if you look close enough with the right lighting)

This experience lead me to give epoxy a try, and it's what I use today when a client requests a coated fingerboard. The epoxy method is significantly more prep and finish work than the superglue, but I can totally control the finish and finish tolerance by utilizing the right process and tools. I use System3 Mirror Coat for the epoxy, and have found it holds up to heavy roundwound string usage without anything more than some small scuffing - YMMV depending on whether or not you have a death grip with your fretting hand (which you shouldn't, but that's a whole topic in itself)

My basic process is this:

- remove the neck, all hardware, and de-fret (if needed)
- install fret lines (if needed)
- totally loosen the trussrod
- clamp neck into a homemade jig that allows me to adjust the neck flat while providing support along the back side (StewMac sells a similar jig for mucho $$$)
- level the fingerboard utilizing a radius block (I have the long metal blocks StewMac sells in various radii)
- tape-off everything carefully so only the fingerboard is exposed. give special care to ensure the nut slot is completely masked (what a pain to have to clean hardened epoxy from the nut slot!!! )
- wear a respirator with cartridges approved for epoxy vapors!!! a paper dust mask offers you no real protection
- apply first coat of epoxy and let cure for 24-48 hours. this is more of a sealer coat and not intended to build any epoxy
- roughly re-level the fingerboard to remove any air bubbles (evidence of a dust particle or bad epoxy mixing technique), free standing wood fibers, and globs of epoxy. touch-up any place where the epoxy was accidentally sanded thru.
- wipe down with the recommended solvent (see epoxy container for recommended list) to remove any dust particles
- apply thin coat of epoxy and let cure for 24-48 hours. this is the first of three build coats. be on the lookout for air bubbles!
- apply thin coat of epoxy and let cure for 24-48 hours. this is the second of three build coats
- roughly re-level the fingerboard to remove any air bubbles and lumps of epoxy (where it didn't flow smooth) I estimate that about 80% of the epoxy thickness is removed in this first rough leveling. I make sure I remove any air bubbles I can find.
- apply thin coat of epoxy and let cure for about a week to ensure everything is totally cured and hardened. this is the third of three build coats
- remove the masking
- carefully level the fingerboard being certain not to sand thru the thin epoxy finish. I keep leveling until I have a uniform grit scratch pattern all along the fingerboard, indicating that the radius block is making even contact with the entire surface. be careful not to use too much pressure, as this has potential to reflex the neck resulting in high/low spots. you should also use one long stroke in a single direction vs. a back/forth motion - this will help to keep the epoxy of a consistent thickness the entire length of the fingerboard vs. it being thicker at the ends and thinner in the middle
- I use the radius block down to 600 grit wet-dry paper, and then continue lightly 'sanding' by hand down to 1600 grit
- various buffing compounds buffed with a hand-held variable speed buffer is next (careful about catching an edge!) and followed with a polishing compound

if everything went well, you're now ready to clean out the nut slot with a nut slot file (you will get epoxy in the slot no matter how well you seal it ), install a new nut, re-install the neck hardware, and re-install the neck

this process is every bit as much work as it sounds, but it can be done by most anybody who has good attention to details and is also comfortable utilizing hand tools. it's definitely NOT a simple weekend job, but the results can be quite stellar if you get all the details right. I definitely recommend utilizing a practice run on a cheap fretless prior to taking the plunge on an expensive bass

let me know if there's anything I can answer in more detail for you

all the best,

R

Rod, I can't say how impressed I am with this depth of knowledge!

I hear what you say about withstanding Roundwounds, but I think I'm gonna try it out with Flats first. Plan is to fit some Thomastic Jazz Flatwounds on it & see how they sound. I don't plan to have the Roscoe as my main instrument (so it won't get overused), but I used to have a defretted Aria Pro II. I sold it a few years ago, and have recently been hankering for that inimitable fretless sound. The fact that I've been able to get such a good one is somewhat of a bonus.

just sharing what I've learned from other's generosity and the school of "How not to do things" ... I have a double PhD from that school as my former Wall of Shame 'diplomas' attested to

I'll see if I have time to snap an image of my holding jig this weekend when I get back from Philly. I'm sure anyone who does their own fret leveling might find this image useful for designing their own adjustable jig

all the best,

R

i wouldn't worry about Rotosounds in the least. It'll take a while before any lines appear in the epoxy unless - like Rod mentions - you have a death grip. Besides, flipping back and forth between flats and rounds means multiple neck adjustments, no?

If I say so myself I have a pretty light touch - comes from my background as a guitarist using quite a lot of legato in my playing style. Thing that worried me a little more is that as a guitarist I cultivated quite a big natural RH vibrato (RH for me that is of course...) that has carried over into my bass technique. I'm concerned that this would chew up the finish over time, the more so with roundwounds. Additionally, I've heard quite a lot of people discussing string choice and the general consensus I get is that Flats are generally preferable for tone on a fretless - but I'm prepared to experiment to find a sound I like (I have had an offer from some of my muso friends to form a Jazz outfit that I think will work well with a fretless sound, but this won't happen for a couple of months yet so I have plenty of time to work it through). As to setups, well I've done my own setups for years anyway so for me that's just part of the discovery process. Once I've found a combination that works for me I tend to stick with it.

Is there an issue with changing setups that might crack the epoxy?

no problem with the epoxy I've used. same said for superglue


one thing you'll find with fretless is that you 'vibrato' the notes differently than on a fretted bass ... on a fretted you use a side-side motion to raise the string in pitch and lower it back to the fretted note, while on a fretless the motion is actually in-line with the srting and towards/away from the bridge. in most cases it's as simple as pivoting on your finger pad, but for an enlarged effect you will also slide your finger a larger distance. watch a cellist sometime - that's what you're shooting for.

I note this (and you probably already knew it) because this kind of motion places very little wear on the fingerboard. in contrast, the motion you'd use on a fretted instrument will increase the wear (possibly significantly) depending on your 'fretting' pressure

all the best,

R

You may want to try a set of coated strings on your fretless too, if you want a roundwound sound with a bit of extra protection for your board.

I love this forum!

Ditto. I'm using Elixirs on my fretless Wal now. The fretboard is ebony, which is a hard wood, but I started seeing some marks after a while and I much prefer rounds on a fretless over flats so Elixirs were the way to go for me.

Also, I suggest you make sure you like the sound and feel of a coated board before having the work done. I personally do not like the feel, and it can add a bit more top end clickiness to your attack that you may or may not like either.

Too late!

This forum loves you too.

Rodent, thank you also for the superbly detailed explanation. The way it was explained to me by the luthier who did it (who also claimed to have done Jaco's bass back in the day, he was based in Fort Lauderdale, Jaco's home town) is a little different. Not to say that he didn't just gloss over the process with generalities but here it is: he said that he built a form/mold/wall around the fingerboard, poured in the epoxy, let it cure, then "milled" it down to the original radius and polished it. I'm going to guess that what he did was actually a lot closer to what you explained.

Anyway, let us all not forget the wonderful variety of absolutely stellar tones that Jaco got from an epoxy finished board with Rotosounds on it. From warm and mellow to biting and aggressive. Also, Mark Egan on his Pedulla Buzz bass, super warm, if you've heard a track on David Sanborn's Pearls album called Superstar, it's a great example of Barts with an epoxy board. The only question I have is what kind of strings he's using.

Have you checked out fellow lefty Jeff Schmidt yet on his Pedulla? Very cool. Much brighter tones however. Probably helps that it's set up as a piccolo bass. Here's one of several on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZH99St4HGk

That's gorgeous! Anybody got a transcription?

Edit: looked at several pieces, and I'd say most of it is pretty much unplayable on a conventionally strung instrument - the way he plays those big arpeggios looks to be very much an 'upside down' kind of thing. Not too sure how you could do that on a standard instrument.