LeftyBassist.com

Just curious... I hate it.. I know we all do.. Whats the most you'll pay percentage wise for lefty tax? Me, I wont pay 20cents...

Thoughts?

That lefty upcharge thing always pisses me off. I buy 95% of my basses used ,so it's usually a non-issue. The "tooling" fallacy also irks me. I spent the first 10 years of my working life as a machinist and there is very little if any "tooling" involved in making a mirror image product of any kind. Even less so in today's CNC machining world. My take on lefty upcharges has always been it's just a way for guitar makers to jack up prices because they can. I personally would never buy a bass from any company that charges more for a left handed product.

http://mikelull.com/site/instruments/op ... ering.html

I think that is very company specific. For example, Lull charges 10%. It used to be 15%. http://mikelull.com/site/instruments/op ... ering.html

I think Fodera was 15% as well.

On the other hand, there are a number of companies that don't do a lefty tax like G&L, Carvin on the more well known side, and our very own Regenerate Guitar Works on the lesser known side. I think Fender charges more for lefties, but don't quote me on that because I am not sure.

I think Lakland does not upcharge either.If only they would offer Skylines in lefty.

Maybe our resident builder Rod/Regenerate can weigh in on this topic, but offhand I don't see how any company can justify a retooling upcharge if they're utilizing CNC at this point, though I do know that as a smaller company Rod has to spend more to outsource certain specific components (i.e. Tele Bass plates), so it may very well come down to whether or not the company is willing to absorb any additional materials costs in order to deliver a left handed instrument at the same price as a righty.

I'm old enough to have worked in manufacturing way before CNC equipment was the norm. (and yes I still have all my fingers and digits) Trust me tooling for mirror image products has never been the issue. We lefties are only 15% of the general population and about 3% of the bass/guitar players out there. That has always been a convenient excuse builders have used to justify charging us more. It's more of a demand issue as well as what they call "limited runs" of lefties. It's the same illogic as to why they usually offer limited color options compared to righty instruments. There's no tooling involved in a paint booth.

I am very reluctant to pay any additional fee whatsoever. Unless I really, really want the damn thing and can't find anything comparable anywhere else for a FAIR price (which basically doesn't happen in this market), I won't do business with a builder that upcharges.

There are definitely things besides retooling that cost more when dealing with lefty instruments. It all just depends on how well your particular bass design lends itself to mirror image production.

It simply takes more thought when you're doing hand carving and sanding and that adds more time which adds more cost... the more complicated your design and the more handwork that is done, the harder it is to reproduce backwards. Think about hand carving and properly sanding the mirror image of an asymmetrical neck when you only build one for every hundred or more of your righty orders. A lot of that muscle memory and natural "feel" you've aquired as a seasoned builder goes out the window.

Several builders I have talked to have said that it simply takes them a little more time to make sure everything is that way it should be... that extra time adds cost.

Also, some hardware is only designed to work well righty... and if you want to take the extra initiative and actually wire your basses lefty, you'll have to stock electronic components specifically for lefty use. Many cases are only designed righty as well... if you want to provide a lefty case, you'll sometimes have to pay more for fabrication. All of this stuff adds to the cost of the build.

So, with that said, I get it... I don't like it, but I understand.

Ultimately, I wish that more builders would just eat the cost or pass on some kind of 1% "lefty tax" onto to every righty sale to make up for the difference.

Your numbers are a bit inflated... it's much closer to 10% of the population and 1% of the guitar market.

I stand corrected on my demographics.Your numbers would seem to offer even more support to upcharges being more of a demand issue.I still don't buy into the "retooling" line.I've actually machined mirror image products using identical tooling,dies,chucks and other tools of the trade.There's no magic here. Your points to me would be valid on high end instruments that are certainly more labor intensive and would require more "thinking" from a right handed builder. (ie fanned frets,asymmetrical necks and other unique and custom options. ) Production type basses, not so much. But I still would NEVER pay an upcharge for ANY left handed instrument. It baffles me that if some companies don't charge extra,why we would tolerate and support those that do. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Yeah, I used to feel that way too. Having that personal policy will certainly narrow your options even more in an already difficult market, however.

And I see your point on the "kit bass" builders for sure.

I would, however, encourage you to take some time and talk to some builders who charge more for lefties and ask them why they do. Challenge them. Ask good questions.

That's what I did... I've talked to lots of them face-to-face... dozens... and it didn't take very long for me to understand that their reasons usually make sense, and they're not trying to rip anyone off.

At least, I never got that feeling from anyone.

Sadowsky to me is a"kit bass builder" ,albeit a high end kit bass, and I'm pretty sure he upcharges for lefties. Lakland is another quality "kit builder" that doesn't. I think it's more of what they think the lefty market will bear. If not paying a surcharge for being lefty limits my purchasing options so be it. We're fairly limited anyway, some builders won't make a lefty for any price. There are enough out there who will and not charge extra to keep me playing and buying for years to come. My take is those who don't upcharge will get my business.

I don't charge the 'lefty tax' due to a business principle choice, but I do have a significant amount of added cost that I have chosen to absorb simply because I have personal interest in making lefty instruments available in as wide a range of features as I offer on a righty unit. Is it a smart financial decision - no, and I consistently have to justify my position to my advisory board.

Is there an added cost for lefty tooling? It totally depends on how you run your fabrication process, and what you consider to be 'tooling.' There is no added cost for hand tools, small power tools like routers, or larger tools like jointers/planers/band saws/etc...

How about added costs for CNC tooling (i.e. hold-down jigs)? YES there is absolutely added cost here, but the extent of the cost depends on how you choose to manufacture. My CNC alignment/hold-down tooling is unique between rightly and lefty instruments because I also utilize a vacuum grid pattern within the tool to pull the wood part securely into place. Because the body shape is mirrored, I need to make separate tools for righty and lefty bodies and necks. This effectively doubles my tooling cost to offer a lefty version of each design. So I have a double cost in the materials the tooling is made from - check. I have double the cost of CAD/CAM of my tooling design – check. I have added cost for storing and maintaining these tools – check. I have added cost of updating this tooling when a model design change requires it – check. My cost to maintain a lefty version of every model I make doubles my tooling costs vs. only offering a righty version. Could I do things differently, probably – but that would require additional cost for new tooling, while also increasing my R&D time since I would need to ensure that all tooling was usable for both righty and lefty configurations (this is not always possible)

I also have to recreate the CNC paths within a mirrored CAD model. I admire those who have a 5-digit budget for CAD/CAM software and 6-digit budgets for CNC machines with operators who earn close to a 6-digit wage each year. I make do with what my limited budget can afford, and that means CAD/CAM software that has limited mirror capabilities, and SIGNIFICANT re-work to recreate cutting paths for the CNC. Time to recreate these tooling paths is about 75% of the time it takes to work out the original righty design - I gain some advantage because I've worked the details out in the original righty design, but I still need to finesse each g-code file and build/cut proofing bodies and neck to validate the code and tool paths are correct. This cost is absorbed into my overhead (i.e. profitability) and not directly passed on within a lefty build.

Once I have all of these hold-down vacuum tools and CAD/CAM files completed, I also have the added downtime of changing out hold-down tooling when swapping from a righty unit to a lefty unit. This downtime comes at the expense of not producing anything, which equates to not generating income. Depending on the tooling, it can take an hour to reconfigure everything and be running again. If I run a batch of 25 righty bodies, then retool for a single lefty body, and then re-tool for righty bodies I lose two hours of potential run time to retooling to do a lefty. I'm a small shop and can more easily absorb the cost, but some large shops need to account for this cost by either limiting the number of times they swap out tooling or adding the cost to what they are making a small batch of. Larger shops also have significant QA processes and people who certify that all is good to go before restarting their big expensive tools. These people and process are not done by charity volunteers – so there is an added cost to swap out a production run, and the smaller the batch the more it costs per unit to do this.

There's also the cost of stocking lefty unique parts like pots, and some hard to obtain hardware. Add to all this the added cost of labor and the need to train the assembly staff on an additional model.


I totally get why some companies charge more, and why others simply don't offer options outside of a narrowly specified box (and why others do both of these things) I also get the headache of having to manage non-standard processes and parts unique to small batches of instruments. This is typically easier to do for small shops like myself than larger shops like Fender simply because the nature of a small shop is to live on the edge of flexibility while being financially solvent building smaller quantities.

A business needs to turn a profit to stay in business; else they will hit negative revenue and close up shop. Identifying the right balance in pricing is a challenging aspect of any manufacturing business, and the pressure to remain competitive is enormous at times. I receive consistent pressure from my advisory team to stop offering lefty instruments and instead focus that same time/financial resources on the more profitable models and configurations.

To date I refuse to give in and have won the discussion with my advisory team, so current models and their tooling are good to go ... but future models that don't utilize an already existing set of tools may not fare so well. It’s part of the cost of competing against the slave labor factories from overseas and selling to a customer base where a great majority turn a blind eye to those labor practices so long as the end product price is cheap.

Great read... thanks for posting that, Rod.

Many of the answers I received over the years were much less descriptive than that... but they were all in the same ballpark.

While I appreciate your willingness to fight the fight on our behalf, I certainly would understand if you had to add a little on top if it meant you being able to keep producing a few lefties here and there.

I'd rather have to pay a slight premium to have a few more choices than to have none at all.

So I'm thinking it's almost a miracle that a mid-sized company like G&L, that's been in business for almost 35 years can do all that and not charge more for a lefty bass. Exception to the rule or do you think they lose money on every lefty bass they make? My guess would be that they've already made the investment,paid it off and are now at the point of seeing a profitable return on that investment. Thanks for the info. and thanks for being one of the builders that doesn't feel the need to beat us lefties up with upcharges.

that's a good question that only G&L can answer. it definitely would be most interesting to have a candid conversation with them and learn all the secret details


and an interesting tidbit on my advisors: about 25% of the team are lefty

all the best,

R

Awesome post Rod!

viewing the official G&L factory tour images, it appears that they utilize no CNC machines in their manufacturing workflow. if this is still the case, then most of their tooling is specific to pin router templates that can be flipped over to cut a lefty body.





absolutely nothing wrong with the pin router approach (I have a large one myself in addition to the CNC, and I know Roscoe utilizes a couple in their production), and far easier to train new employees how to operate. The key issue with pin routers is safety (there's a lot of people missing fingers due to the work piece catching and pulling their hand into the exposed overhead cutter)

all the best,

R

Old School goodness. Brings me back to my apprentice days. That explains a lot. Thanks.

I'm old enough to have worked in manufacturing way before CNC equipment was the norm. (and yes I still have all my fingers and digits) Trust me tooling for mirror image products has never been the issue. Old School goodness. Brings me back to my apprentice days. That explains what I meant by tooling not being an issue. Making things the old fashioned way sans CNC.