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| guitar intonation problem? http://leftybassist.com./viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1333 |
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| Author: | reynoldbot [ December 16th, 2009, 5:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | guitar intonation problem? |
I own a 2004 Fender Telecaster Standard, and it's always had a problem with the G string. It seems no matter what I do, I can't get the string to tune properly to the rest of the strings. When my tuner says its in tune, it sounds sharp against the rest of the strings. Even stranger, I can usually get it to sound in tune with either the EAD strings or the BE strings, but not all together. I had two theories for this. My first was that the tuning machine was loose, so I tightened it. No dice. Then I checked the intonation and adjusted it. Still didn't work. I've changed strings several times and I still get the same problem. I don't know what else to do! What the heck is wrong with my guitar? |
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| Author: | andrew [ December 16th, 2009, 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Rodent is away until next week but I'm sure he'll be able to help you then. |
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| Author: | pjmuck [ December 16th, 2009, 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Is it a 3 or 6 saddle bridge? The 3 saddle brass bridges can obviously have some intonation issues, but damn if they don't have "The" classic Tele tone! Do you also experience the problem with both pickups or just the bridge or neck PUP? It's always recommended to intonate with both pickups fully up and tone up as well. Check your pickup output readings as well, since I believe the bridge PUP is stronger and may need to be adjusted accordingly. If you've checked your intonation properly already (preferably with a strobe tuner), then the next step could be lowering the G side of the pickup(s). Pickups too close to the strings or too high can create funky harmonics and other unwanted frequencies that can throw a tuner off. Trying playing with pickup hieght(s) first to see if there's any improvement. |
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| Author: | reynoldbot [ December 16th, 2009, 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
pjmuck wrote: Is it a 3 or 6 saddle bridge? The 3 saddle brass bridges can obviously have some intonation issues, but damn if they don't have "The" classic Tele tone! Do you also experience the problem with both pickups or just the bridge or neck PUP? It's always recommended to intonate with both pickups fully up and tone up as well. Check your pickup output readings as well, since I believe the bridge PUP is stronger and may need to be adjusted accordingly. If you've checked your intonation properly already (preferably with a strobe tuner), then the next step could be lowering the G side of the pickup(s). Pickups too close to the strings or too high can create funky harmonics and other unwanted frequencies that can throw a tuner off. Trying playing with pickup hieght(s) first to see if there's any improvement. It's a six saddle bridge. I tuned the guitar with both pups on, no dice. Neither of the pups are very close to the strings, but to be sure I evened them out, still no effect. I even tried tuning manually using harmonics and still I can't get it to sound right. It seems that mostly it has trouble harmonizing with the D string. Those two just don't want to play nice. I don't think the problem is with the pups since I can hear the same problem when I play unplugged. I'm not an expert at intonation, so it's possible I didn't intonate it properly, but I've adjusted the intonation on my guitar and basses a bunch of times over the years and never had any problems. Thanks for the advice though! |
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| Author: | AzWhoFan [ December 16th, 2009, 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Some random thoughts ... One possibility may be the string is getting caught up on the nut. You could try Nut-Sauce or some other lubricant. Maybe the nut isn't cut straight across, parallel to the fretboard? Is it a wound or unwound G string? Whichever one it is, I would try swapping it out for the other. Is that bad-boy string held down by a string tree? Is it out of tune when all 6 strings are open, as well as when you play chords? That might indicate a neck relief issue. Or the frets aren't properly levelled. |
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| Author: | pjmuck [ December 16th, 2009, 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
AzWhoFan wrote: Is it out of tune when all 6 strings are open, as well as when you play chords? That might indicate a neck relief issue. Or the frets aren't properly levelled. +1. I had a fret issue with a Gretsch Tennessee Rose guitar I used to own, which would always play sharp at the 13th fret (and fret out/buzz as well). I had the frets leveled and viola! No more issues. Just an FYI regarding intonation: I do all my own setups and I use the standard open string-12th fret fretted approach, but I also play the harmonic at the 12th fret as well to make sure that's in tune with the other two octaves. Also note that if you're using a tuner to do your intonation that certain tuners have issues and/or are limited in their range (i.e. 3 octaves max). My Peterson Strobostomp has problems identifying certain pitches when they're out of it's range, which is why it has a specific bass or guitar setting. You'd be surprised how vastly different the results can be when I accidentally have it on guitar setting when I'm intonating a bass. |
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| Author: | reynoldbot [ December 17th, 2009, 2:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Thanks for the help guys. The string is unwound. Next time I buy strings I will see if I can get my hands on a wound G. It's not held down by a string tree. As far as chords go, it sounds out of tune with most chords but sounds fine when playing others. It also sounds out of tune playing open. Even when it is shown as being perfectly in tune on the tuner, it just sounds off. I think I'm just going to take it to a shop and see if they can figure it out. It's been driving me nuts and I can hear it on every recording I make. |
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| Author: | leftybassman392 [ December 17th, 2009, 9:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
From what you've said it does sound like an intonation issue - especially if it sounds in tune open and out of tune fretted (or vice versa). Have you had it set up by a luthier? |
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| Author: | reynoldbot [ December 18th, 2009, 12:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
No it has not been set up by a luthier. I don't have a lot of money to spend on that kind of thing. |
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| Author: | Rodent [ December 23rd, 2009, 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
it could be a couple things, including that you simply have a remarkably good ear for intonation, I recommend tuning the string up (not down) to pitch, and then fretting at the 15th fret to check if you have compensated properly. I've found that checking at the 15th fret is going to provide a better intonation validation point that simply checking at the octave, and unless the fret is located poorly you should have even intonation across all of your usable frets below this point. in my early years I used the 12th fret and could never figure out why the intonation was never 'just right' - using the 15th fret resolved this beyond intonation, take a look at your nut to verify that the strings rest on the forward most edge towards the body and not somewhere inside the nut or at the back side. the slots in the nut should taper downwards from this forward witness point so that the string is difinitively resting on that forward edge. if the string is resting anywhere other than the forward edge you're going to have tuning issues this would also be a good time to verify whether you have a Buzz F (or other type of) compensated nut, and that you're intonating with a tuner that has the capability to account for this type of compensated nut. without looking at your specific guitar, the last item that comes to mind is that your pickup could have a high pole piece on this string, and your action set-up is allowing the magnet to pull the string out of tune when you play. I believe you note that you've checked for this, but it's worth pointing out nonetheless all the best, R |
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| Author: | reynoldbot [ December 24th, 2009, 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Thanks for the helpful advice, Rodent! I'll redo the intonation at the 15th fret like you said, and I'll check the nut to see if the string is positioned properly. I don't know much about guitar nuts, but I do know that the one on my tele is just the stock fender nut. I'm out of town this week, so I won't be able to test any of your hypotheses until I get back. I'll let you guys know then! |
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| Author: | pjmuck [ December 24th, 2009, 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Never heard the 15th fret suggestion before. I'll have to try that too.  Rod, would this depend on the instrument's scale? With some of my 24 fret+ basses, I've resorted to checking intonation at both the open, 12th, and 24th frets. I've never been able to get the 24th frets perfectly intonated, however, but close enough for my needs since I'm rarely playing up there anyway. |
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| Author: | Rodent [ December 24th, 2009, 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
the concept behind the 15th fret is that there's not a major harmonic there to drag the tuner in one direction of the other I've used this on 32.5", 33", 34", and 35" scale 4, 5, 6, and 8-string (octave) basses to my satisfaction. until just recently I have never worked on a thin string guitar set-up, but that's in the process of changing ... so I'll be giving my method a go on a thin string here in a bit to see whether the same concept holds up (which I believe it will based on my 8-string set-up work, but I always like to make sure by physically doing something vs. speaking theoretically from my left cheek) all the best, R |
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| Author: | leftybassman392 [ December 24th, 2009, 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Could you go through your method please Rod - if there's no proper harmonic there (which there isn't - I get a very strange diffused harmonic sound on the Axiom) then presumably you're using a reference frequency and instrumentation? Or am I missing something really obvious? (Wouldn't be the first time BTW  ). Is it really as simple as using a standard tuner? Surely the point of using the 12th fret harmonic is that it's a very precise doubling of frequency... I'm confused! 
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| Author: | Rodent [ December 25th, 2009, 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
precisely why I use the 15th fret - there is no donimant harmonic there to distract the tuner the reason we intonate an instrument is to account for the string stretching that happens when we press down on the string and cause it to contact the fret. since the string is being stretched slightly sharp (more so if you have really high action and/or heavy strings) the saddles are moved back from theoretical scale length location to accommodate this sharpening of the note and bring it back to being in tune. utilizing a harmonic on an open string really does little to impart the stretching quality of playing a note, and using a major harmonic node only gives room for a tuner to catch the harmonic instead of the lower fundimental my set-up process is to do things in roughly this order (given that the frets are properly leveled) - tune all strings to pitch - adjust neck relief - tune all strings to pitch - adjust individual string heights for preferred playing action - address any high frets with 600 grit sandpaper in cases where the action is sickeningly low and the frets have already been leveled. this is where a good set-up guy earns his keep from a player's perspective  - tune all strings to pitch - intonate each string, making sure that I always tune up to pitch so that the string is under tension on the peghead. the 15th fret is my usual starting point, but I also reference the 17th and 19th frets on basses I know will be played by someone who really gets around up high on the fretboard. - play a series of notes up/down the neck on each string, various double stops, and then open string + harmonics to ensure that everything is a-OK on occasion I find an instrument someone's brought in for a set-up that will intonate correctly, but that has a fret or two in the 5th - 9th area that is ever so slightly out when everything else is in. usually it's been because the fret crown in that area is a little off of direct center - but it's never been enough that anyone except a fretless player with ultra extrodinary super-human pitch discernment would catch it in a studio setting |
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| Author: | leftybassman392 [ December 26th, 2009, 6:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: guitar intonation problem? |
Rodent wrote: precisely why I use the 15th fret - there is no donimant harmonic there to distract the tuner the reason we intonate an instrument is to account for the string stretching that happens when we press down on the string and cause it to contact the fret. since the string is being stretched slightly sharp (more so if you have really high action and/or heavy strings) the saddles are moved back from theoretical scale length location to accommodate this sharpening of the note and bring it back to being in tune. utilizing a harmonic on an open string really does little to impart the stretching quality of playing a note, and using a major harmonic node only gives room for a tuner to catch the harmonic instead of the lower fundimental my set-up process is to do things in roughly this order (given that the frets are properly leveled) - tune all strings to pitch - adjust neck relief - tune all strings to pitch - adjust individual string heights for preferred playing action - address any high frets with 600 grit sandpaper in cases where the action is sickeningly low and the frets have already been leveled. this is where a good set-up guy earns his keep from a player's perspective - tune all strings to pitch - intonate each string, making sure that I always tune up to pitch so that the string is under tension on the peghead. the 15th fret is my usual starting point, but I also reference the 17th and 19th frets on basses I know will be played by someone who really gets around up high on the fretboard. - play a series of notes up/down the neck on each string, various double stops, and then open string + harmonics to ensure that everything is a-OK on occasion I find an instrument someone's brought in for a set-up that will intonate correctly, but that has a fret or two in the 5th - 9th area that is ever so slightly out when everything else is in. usually it's been because the fret crown in that area is a little off of direct center - but it's never been enough that anyone except a fretless player with ultra extrodinary super-human pitch discernment would catch it in a studio setting Thanks for that Rod - very instructive as always. I'm going to try it out one one or two of my guitars that have always been a little problematic. Apologies if this is a little OT, but isn't it also the case that accurate intonation is to some degree a function of string thickness? I'm sure I've seen it somewhere but can't find the reference. |
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