LeftyBassist.com

Mod note: this was originally posted in the Regenerate Guitar Works wood acquisition thread, but the discussion is more on topic here IMO. R 11 Jan 2010

These look fabulous Rod. Do you have some thoughts you'd like to impart on the effect of different woods on the sound? My understanding is that woods like Maple and Ash impart a brightness to the sound, whilst Mahogany and Walnut give a darker tone. Having said that, there does seem to be something of the 'black art' about wood selection.

It occurs to me that the finished sound of the instrument is a complex balance between several elements (woods, pickups, string choice, scale length.... ). How do you decide where the balance is going to lie and how it's going to be achieved?

Sorry if this seems kind of anal to anybody, but I'm genuinely keen to know.

LB392 brings up a good point. Do you 'tone tap' the wood to get an idea of it's tonal properties before you buy ot build?

I'm came in from the shop to grab a pencil and saw there was a new post here ... and I don't have time right now to answer the topic properly

I think I'm going to move the wood tone discussion to a new thread here in RGW when I get time later this weekend or early next week. I have my personal perspectives on the topic - a topic I really do my best to avoid BTW - but I need to explain the why's of it lest you think I'm just stirring the pot

sorry to mix and run ...

R

let me initiate my perspective on wood tone with this: I do my very best to refrain from posting in wood tone discussion threads. I used to post in these kinds of threads quite often in my early days, but I've learned a lot from actually building basses different ways with the same woods and also the same way with different woods since then. what I've learned (and continue to learn) thru direct first-hand experience is not popular amongst the anointed wood crowd (or those who are looking to market an anointed wood bass to them.)

this said, please understand that these are just my opinions based on my personal building experiences. wood varies in its mechanical properties including density by over 20% in most of the species used for bass building - some woods vary even more. wood is not like aluminum or brass - it doesn't have very specific properties. consequently there are no hard numbers for the mechanical properties of a specific species ... all of the listed numbers are averages gatherd over time from multiple sample sets



I find that my VRB-P4s all sound remarkably alike when I have the pickup height adjusted similarly, the same bridge model/material, and they are all strung with like strings. while not absolutely identical when played solo, the difference is so minute that you'd be hard pressed to tell if I used the same or different basses on different recorded song tracks or in a live mix. this is true whether I'm using Alder, Swamp Ash, or Poplar (I haven't built a Mahogany body VRB-P4 yet, so I can't comment about it at this time.) I could reference other models, but you get the idea with the reference I'm sure

what I find to be the key factors in getting a specific sound are:

- neck construction design and manufacturing techniques
- pickup placement (location) and selection
- string selection
- set-up (pickup height, action, etc ...)


to be clear, I am not saying that all woods impart identical sound qualities to an instrument. what I am saying is that it is impossible to precisely quantify the exact tonal impact that a specific wood used at a specific place will impart to the overall bass build. I am also saying that there is no magic recepie for mixing wood species to create a specific tonality to an instrument IMO. and I am also humbly identifying these statements as my personal, unauthoratative opinion based on my personal building/repair/customizing experiences


to answer AzWhoFan, I do tap my body and neck blanks but not for the purpose you might imagine. as in other materials, a hairline crack will usually not be visible to the eye when the material block is in its rough state. tapping the material block will result in a sonic resonance when the material is crack free. tapping the material block will result in a dull thud when there are internal hairline cracks. I tap check my wood to determine the presence of these cracks, and choose wood that rings freely knowing it's relatively crack free.


I'll keep this thread open so long as discussion remains civil. all too often this topic spins into a heated religious type of debate - and I prefer not to enable that kind of discourse here on LB. also understand that neither myself nor any other instrument builder is an absolute authority on this topic. just because "improperly deified instrument builder" said it doesn't make their statement an absolute authority. understand that many building businesses intentionally generate marketing hype about their "anointed wood" selections to entice potential buyers to choose their product brand over another. my only concern is that unsuspecting consumers have digested these statements as absolute truth, and missed the fact that it's really a combination of skillful marketing and personal opinion

all the best,

R

I'll buy that!


I'll buy that too, as no two pieces of wood are identical.


So then how would you determine if a crack-free piece of would not end up as a [to put it as someone else mentioned] "tone-turd"?


I had no idea this was a heated topic. i sure don't want to start any flame wars!

My curiosity about this subject got peaked recently when I acquired a Collings 290 - their equivalent of a 2-pup Les Paul JR. It's a set-neck all-mahogany construction guitar. That guitar is the most resonant electric instrument [bass or guitar] I've ever owned. It damn near sounds like an acoustic when not plugged in. I had always thought that mahog would be more dull and lifeless than say a similar piece of maple. But now I am proven wrong. So now I'm wondering how the elves at Collings managed to produce such a beast.

That's a fascinating and refreshingly honest viewpoint Rod. I do take your point about 'anointed' woods - presumably Gibson's Mahogany/Maple would be a case in point(?) And I also take the point about the almost religious fervour with which this topic sometimes gets debated.

Pete Stephens' view might, I think, not be too far removed from your own. Although I met him several times I never discussed the topic with him so I could be wrong, but...

he was known for using some fabulous looking woods - despite which his instruments all seem to share the same 'family' sound (and in any case the sound tailoring options on Wals are so wide as to almost take the wood out of the equation).

I'm looking forward to hearing other folks' opinions on the subject. Could be a lively debate!

hahahaha thats awsome, thanks rodent i've been waiting for a builder of some sort to just come right out and admit it. What makes this so funny to me is last night i was on talkbass and saw a discussion on fodera pre-amps and i guess one of the builders chimed in with something to the effect of "though we do sell our pre-amps and pickups to any customer that calls up and asks, you should by no means expect to put them in your bass and get a fodera tone, our tone comes from using specific wood combination of the finest types of woods avalibable that we pain stakingly blah blah blah" you get the point, nice to hear someone basically say its not about the wood (for the most part) but what you do with it

funktastically yours,
Gur

Very interesting and informative comments on this topic Rod, thanks. At the risk of derailing, could you elaborate on one aspect: specifically how neck construction design and manufacturing techniques impact the tone of an instrument? What factors make for a good neck for tone?

sure - here's a few things that have varying degrees of impact on the tone

- neck thickness, shape, headstock size and thickness, string retainer placement, and method of securing
- stiffening rod length, width, depth, and location (or absence of stiffening rods)
- trussrod construction, length, and location

my necks have dual graphite stiffening bars unless otherwise custom orded. my trussrod channels have a radiused bottom (industry standard is a flat bottom)

I have been experimenting with headstock thicknesses, and am leaning towards standardizing on a headstock that is about 1/16" thicker than a stock Fender (more headstock mass)

maybe I'm going crazy, but recently I'm starting to detect a distinct difference between my standard P width necks and the J width necks. I should expect this since they are physically different sizes, but the difference is greater than I used to believe ... and recently more pronounced with some experimenting I've been doing in swapping P & J necks on a fully loaded test VRB-P4 body


back to working on my 2009 excise taxes ...

all the best,

R

AzWhoFan -

I've always known both Honduran and African Mahogany to be very resonant when used in an instrument. I used to own a Warrior 5-string fretless that had a Honduran body core and neck shaft, and I never needed an amp to practice by myself at home. The Honduran neck shaft on the first M-Series 4-string fretless has a similar ringing resonance to it

Some of the less dense Mahoganies from Asia are a totally different creature IME. A couple Philippine Mahogany instruments I've played were more remeniscent of the singing tone that a wad of wet newsprint can achieve.


all the best,

R

well, that explains it I guess. Collings uses Honduran mahogany.

If I can turn to part of my original post that hasn't been discussed yet as far as I can see...

Rod, when you get a commission for a custom build how do you deal with requests concerning tonal character? I'm actually having some difficulty phrasing this question in a way that makes sense to me, so forgive me if I fumble over the words a little... presumably most of your custom stuff is either returning customers or new work based on good experiences from people who've tried out one of your basses and been suitably impressed. Do you ever get commissions of the "I want it to sound like..." type? I mean, even given the superb quality of your workmanship - which IMHO should keep you pretty busy all by itself - you must surely still get requests for a fairly specific tonal range? Or do you feel that you have a 'Regenerate' sound that people are buying into?

That is SUCH a great question!

My all-time favorite quote on this subject comes from Dolly Parton: "Can you make it sound like blue with little sparkles around the edges?"

Although this isn't completely relevant to his particular board, I took a tour of the Taylor factory this past Friday and learned a few things on guitar construction. I'm sure the wood choices have a much bigger effect on the sound of an acoustic instrument than an electric, but they made the point on the tour that the construction of the guitar/bass is just as important for the overall sound as the wood choices. To prove this, Taylor made some guitars out of wood used for pallets and they ended up sounding really good.

My engineer-esque view/experience with the electric bass seems to be that the better resonance you're able to create through the wood selections and construction, the better that will translate through the pickups and to your amp. So I'm not surprised by what you are saying.

I thought you might appreciate this quote from Larry Davis of Gallery Hardwoods. Larry has a Masters Degree, and focused in wood science (I forget the exact major focus, we had breathed a full pint of Naphtha in an enclosed space by the time we were discussing his education while picking thru a ton of wood)



just a little continued discussion from Fri night dinner at NAMM

all the best,

R

Rod,
methinks I should start a University and offer a Master's degree program in Wood Sciences with one available concentration in the area of Guitar Building Mojo.

It would make for some lively discussion and a some very interesting theses.