Feds To Grab Guitars At Concerts....

fivebass52 · **Posted:** July 7th, 2012, 3:05 pm

Anyone hear of this new development by the Feds to protect us from endangered wood use? I'm sure a lot of guitars were built before certain woods were placed on the list, but this seems eccessive.... wondering if they'll make good on this threat....

http://www.ijreview.com/2012/05/5881-ou ... -concerts/

frankenjazz · **Joined:** July 31st, 2009, 1:21 am **Posts:** 232

I wonder how many millions of dollars are being spent just so some feds can hit the summer circuit and see some free concerts.

Lefty007 · **Joined:** March 12th, 2008, 5:13 pm **Posts:** 770

Here is a more balanced report/opinion of this topic, not from such propagandists sources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/opinion/are-guitar-makers-an-endangered-species.html

Agent00Soul · **Posted:** July 9th, 2012, 10:48 am

That's some website :roll:

It's a right wing blog/call to arms, not really a news source. The Times article is a bit clearer on the situation.

Rodent · **Posted:** July 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

there was an excellent meeting at Summer NAMM on the whole CITES topic on Thur afternoon. I'll post a link to the recorded conference call once it's available. I think you'll see some interesting developments and progress on the topic, including legislation that supposed to be going to a vote in Congress in the coming week or so

all the best,

R

Rodent · **Posted:** July 16th, 2012, 3:23 pm

from the official NAMM site

Quote:

NAMM submits CITES agenda recommendation
After review and input by NAMM Members on the Import Export Task Force, NAMM has submitted the attached document as a formal recommendation to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) for agenda consideration at the sixteenth regular meeting of the Conference of the Parties to CITES (CoP16) tentatively scheduled to be held in March 2013 in Thailand. NAMM urges consideration of “instrument passport and CITES appendix clarifications” for instruments with CITES listed materials to improve cross-border transport of instruments and wood materials.

The Parties to the Convention meet periodically to review what species in international trade should be regulated and other aspects of the implementation of CITES. NAMM recommends to the CoP that either (a) a personal effects exemption for musical instruments be adopted by all parties, or (b) a process be developed by which all parties will allow free transport of musical instruments containing CITES-listed species if the owner/traveler obtains necessary documentation from the management authority of his or her country of residence, which documentation would allow the identified instrument to leave the country. Additionally, NAMM has requested clarification on definitions of sawn wood and veneer listed on CITES appendix II and III as regulated timber species.

link here: http://www.namm.org/public-affairs/arti ... mmendation

-and this also-

Quote:

Your Action To Revise Lacey Act, Protect Instrument Owners, Manufacturers And Retailers Needed Now!

Contact Your Member of Congress!

Please call or email your Members in the U.S. House of Representatives NOW and ask them to vote YES for the passage of H.R. 3210, the RELIEF Act.

full content here:

http://www.namm.org/blog/your-action-re ... instrument
http://www.namm.org/publicaffairs

- and a good blog page on Lacey Act info + updates -

http://www.namm.org/public-affairs/blog ... nt-updates

I'm still waiting for the working session audio to be posted. more on that when it's available

all the best,

R

Agent00Soul · **Posted:** August 6th, 2012, 11:01 am

Looks like Gibson admitted it was guilty:

"Gibson admitted violating the Lacey Act, which requires firms to know that timber they use is legally obtained....The FWS found evidence that an employee had told Gibson two years previously that its Madagascan imports might be illegal, but that the company had nevertheless ordered further stocks."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19153588

fivebass52 · **Posted:** August 6th, 2012, 11:05 pm

Agent00Soul wrote:

Looks like Gibson admitted it was guilty:

"Gibson admitted violating the Lacey Act, which requires firms to know that timber they use is legally obtained....The FWS found evidence that an employee had told Gibson two years previously that its Madagascan imports might be illegal, but that the company had nevertheless ordered further stocks."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19153588

It irritates me when a company denies charges then finally admits, as in this case, that it knew it was breaking the law. The fine, although substantial, seems almost light considering the seriousness of the charges, and the fact they were guilty from the start...

Rodent · **Posted:** August 7th, 2012, 9:13 am

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/06/news/co ... ?hpt=hp_t3

Quote:

"We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve," Joskiewicz said in a statement released late Monday. This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars."

On July 19, the Wall Street Journal published an op-ed piece by Juszkiewicz that detailed the raid, which he says cost his company $2 million to $3 million in products and productivity.

He also said the importation was in compliance with the laws of India. He called the U.S. government's actions an 'overreach" and a "job killer."

I don't see Gibson admitting guilt to anything here, but instead they took a good look at what it would cost the company to fight the unending funding of the US government on this case.

all the best,

R

Agent00Soul · **Posted:** August 7th, 2012, 9:23 am

Rodent wrote:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/06/news/companies/gibson-imports-wood/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3

Quote:

"We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve," Joskiewicz said in a statement released late Monday. This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars."

On July 19, the Wall Street Journal published an op-ed piece by Juszkiewicz that detailed the raid, which he says cost his company $2 million to $3 million in products and productivity.

He also said the importation was in compliance with the laws of India. He called the U.S. government's actions an 'overreach" and a "job killer."

I don't see Gibson admitting guilt to anything here, but instead they took a good look at what it would cost the company to fight the unending funding of the US government on this case.

all the best,

R

Unless the BBC are totally getting it wrong, it looks like an admission to me: "Gibson admitted violating the Lacey Act, which requires firms to know that timber they use is legally obtained." Admitting you violated the law is tantamount to admitting guilt, no?

If so, Gibson seemed quite happy to throw their supporters' efforts in this case under a bus in the name of money IMHO. To admit guilt when there is none because of the cost of trial doesn't help your reputation as the keeper of the American tradition that they portrayed themselves as. And I get annoyed with the "job killer" and "overreach" statements. CEOs often break those chestnuts out when they get accused of something, valid or not.

It makes me wonder what other guitar companies are hiding from us though. Gibson - a market leader - can't be alone in this practice.

Rodent · **Posted:** August 7th, 2012, 9:46 am

IMO on what little I know of the case, Gibson made the right choice to settle vs. fighting the case. it has already been established that the US gov't is willing to interpret and impose a foreign country's law on imports, even after that country has reiterated that the export was in compliance with their laws (Indian Rosewood fretboard blanks exported by India) ... this same gov't has unlimited taxpayer funded legal teams who can spend the remainder of their career pounding this case into trivial oblivion - something a private/public company cannot afford to do. there comes a time when you realize that even though you are 100% correct in the legality of your position, the cost to win that case in court is beyond the resources you have available ... and so the cost to pay the penalty becomes reasonable.

essentially the gov't has established a new means to 'tax' companies they choose to target

look to see most of the traditional ebony, rosewood, etc ... species utilized for decades to disappear from what's offered in all but the most expensive instruments. this is bad news for the US and European guitar industry, not just Gibson

all the best,

R

Agent00Soul · **Posted:** August 7th, 2012, 9:55 am

If I ran Gibson's PR dept, I would be media-blitizing right now to reiterate what you just posted.

Hopefully, the good that will come of all this is that US and European luthiers will come up with new ways to work with materials that are not on anyone's blacklist.

velalv · **Posted:** August 8th, 2012, 8:04 am

Like Rod, I have been watching this at a distance. He has a good point regarding cost of fighting vs. cost of settling. Just for perspective, the cost of fighting this for Gibson easily would have gone over $300,000 in legal fees, and I am sure that they have spent nearly that much already.

The admission of guilt is very interesting. Typically, administrative agreements with the government, and court settlements, have non-admission of guilt clauses. The fact that this one does have an admission of guilt means one of two things, and I have no clue which is truly correct.

1) They are trying to make a point about the cost and regulatory uncertainty attendant with doing business in the United States to the public and to lawmakers. That point being that it is very, very, hard to comply with regulations in different countries, and sometimes in different states, despite your best attempt to do so.

2) The more likely explanation: By admitting guilt, they are able to settle the matter for a significantly lower fine.

Hope this helps.

LeftyBassist.com

Feds To Grab Guitars At Concerts....

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